Bush wins!

Bush won the election, Kerry is about to concede (as per Drudge), and I am here at work listening to people whine. Its the regular stuff: "I can only imagine the damage that will be done to this country in the next 4 years" and "Clinton kept us safe", etc. My favorite is this one woman's labeling yesterday "Black Tuesday".

My friend reports hearing the following at her workplace: "moving out of this country", "i hate midwesterners", "he's a moron", "i will only listen to Kerry".

My other friend, who voted for Kerry, informs me via email:

"anyway, i am certain that majority of rep voters are farm hicks (just from the states that consistently vote rep.)"

and

"...most of the country are made up of farmers who don't even care or know about the issues. the only reason they vote republican is because they are against gays/abortions, etc and republicans keep telling them what good christians they are."

and

"i mean, think about it....all issues that republicans hold near and dear are a redneck's wet dream - stop abortions, prevent gays from seeking equal rights, guns for everyone, etc....."

Interesting comments from a member of a populist party. According to her, the majority of the Republican voters are "farm hicks"/"rednecks" who "don't even care or know about the issues".

Comments

[olka]

I knew that I should have moved to Florida and voted there!

(Although Ohio doesn't look bad either lol)

[Stan LS]

Hey, both Florida & Ohio look great to me :)

[Noofy]

Hmm, I'm not hearing anyone whine here :) Then again, it may have something to do with the company giving half a mil to the campaign... we'd probably get fired for voicing a non-corporate-sponsored opinion.

[Stan LS]

Noof,

Yep, just checked, people who work at your company gave 3x more to Bush, then to Kerry.

[Noofy]

Would that make them 3x more biased? ;) Wonder if the half-mil can then be laundered somewhere...

[Stan LS]

Sure, I take 20% :)

[Jules]

Ok, Slavik.

Majority of people who voted for Bush ARE farmers who are ignorant of the world around them. First of all, who do you think lives in these midwestern states? 90% of those people live in rural areas, far from each other. They don't care about civil rights, social reform, etc. Most of the people who are faced with these issues live in large urban area, who oddly enough vote democratic. Now, I'm not saying that they are all dumb for voting for Bush, but they ARE ignorant of many issues that were brought up in this campaign. How many people who have to get up at 5 am to milk a cow discuss politics?

I don't think it's a matter of race, or gender, but there has to be a reason why you see this voting trend over and over again. Oddly enough, all the states that actually face a real threat of terrorism because of their large metropolitan areas voted democrat, and overwhelmingly so.

I don't appreciate you posting my email like I'm talking out of my ass here. You have your beliefs and I have mine. If you're worried that I called you a redneck, I didn't. I know the difference between ALL and MAJORITY.

My problem with the republican party is that they want to keep back all the progress that people are trying to make in term of civil liberties. Yes, I believe abortions should be legal, Yes, I believe that gays should marry, and be able to form families and have children without our President telling them they can't. Yes, I believe that stem cell research is not only right, but necessary.

My problem with this president is his constant desire to shove his religious beliefs down everyone's throats. I greatly respect Kerry for saying that although he is a religious man, he doesn't believe that he can dictate his views on a Muslim, a Jew, a Buddhist, etc.

It's funny, but I never felt this passionate about the republic party until this president came into office. In addition, everyone I spoke with about Bush and Kerry, had very relaxed attitude towards Kerry, but those who dissliked Bush, did so with passion.

I may not agree with everything that democrats stand for, but I disagree with most republican views. I am not disagreeing with them because I'm stupid, or misguided, but because I have my own convictions, just like you do.

[Deb S.]

You can pretend to know something about farmers and republicans, but you really are ignorant. You have convictions and no one else? Please. Just because you don't understand how someone else thinks, what their priorities are - doesn't make you a higher being.

[Stan LS]

Deb S,

Exactly. This is why Democrats lost. They make themselves out to be the party of the regular folk, but in reality they are elitists who are out of touch with the the average american. They thought they could garnish support by using celebrities in their campaign.

Note that Jules doesn't refer to any site, study or a statistic when claiming that Republicans are ignorant. Her sole reasoning is based on "How many people who have to get up at 5 am to milk a cow discuss politics?".

As for I greatly respect Kerry for saying that although he is a religious man, he doesn't believe that he can dictate his views on a Muslim, a Jew, a Buddhist, etc.

I find it curious that the vast majority (and all of the ultra orthodox Hasidic in brooklyn) voted for Bush, without any fear of their religion being threatened. What's more curious, is the way the non religous folk try to use "freedom of religion" when it suits their political needs.

everyone I spoke with about Bush and Kerry, had very relaxed attitude towards Kerry, but those who dissliked Bush, did so with passion

That should tell you a thing or two. Hate is an emotion, not a rationale. Finally, here's an interesting statistic from a source that's not so friendly to Bush.. The percentage of Bush and Kerry supporters who are college graduates is exactly the same: 49%.

[Dima]

Jules,
1. When you say "Majority of people who voted for Bush ARE farmers who are ignorant of the world around them" you might be right...they ARE ignorant, but not stupid.
Being ignorant means being 'uknowing, not learnt', so asking "How many people who have to get up at 5 am to milk a cow discuss politics?" is in itself IGNORANT. How many people from those rural areas did you talk to? or met? did YOU campaign there to know what they care about?
Do you know for a fact they don't care about civil rights?
2. The "voting trend" you're talking about can actually be illustrated by OHIO: Theit motto is "with god everything is possible" and there's a huge evangelical christian representation there...so if the President appeals to them because they share the same conservativevalues, then of course they vote conservative. What's your point there? Of course there is a gap between central and coastal areas OF ANY COUNTRY!
3. As to gay marriage point-look, I agree with you, but the President didn't TELL anyone how to vote...he left it up to the people. Just because majority of them is oblivious to those issues is a shame, but there's a democratic process for you...

[Deb S.]

Stan,

I live in a farm community. I'm not a farmer myself, but I know a few. In this day and age, farmers are not what the stereotype is. One of my farming friends is a retired stock broker. Very few farmers are life-long farmers. They've had a life. ;)

I was born in Chicago. Lived there 32 years. I suppose the ten years I've lived here in the boonies makes me an ignorant farm hick. LOL

[Deb S.]

Oh, and even in this teensy town of just barely 3000 people, we have a gay population. Jules has no clue.

[Stan LS]

Deb S,

Sure looks like it!

[Bill]

I'm sorry, some are ignorant. I live in Georgia and have talked to a fair amount of conservatives.

One time I was talking with a guy who was bitching that Kerry payed less of a percentage in taxes than he did, and that he was scum for it. I looked him in the eye and asked him: You're bitching about Kerry paying less of a percentage in taxes and you're voting republican?

Which side wants to tax the rich again?

My mom voted for marriage ban in georgia. I asked her if she supported civil unions for gays and she said yes. I told her that the bill she voted for would ban them from civil unions, and the state from recognising other states civil unions. She had no clue what she was voting for.

[Bill]

I don't think the people are stupid, I just think sometimes they don't realise the full ramifications of their actions and sometimes the republican party does it's damnedest to keep it that way.

For instance, the way they worded the question about gay marriage on the ballot here in Georgia. It makes no mention of denying gay people civil unions, or not recognising a civil union from another state. It was simply : Do you think marriage should be kept between a man and a woman? or something to that effect.

If it had mentioned denying them civil unions and the rest, I feel sure it never would have passed, because when you say: Would you like to keep marriage between a man and a woman, but allow gays to have civil unions? The numbers shift dramatically.

So when people say they are stupid or ignorant, in some respects they are.

However, this goes for the Democratic party also I'm sure, it's not a one sided thing. Some people just don't pay attention to what they are voting for or perform due diligence.

[Stan LS]

Bill,

Ok. We got some guy who "was bitching" and your mother. Not a scientific study, is it? :)

Some people just don't pay attention to what they are voting for or perform due diligence.

You can go further with that. Give people basic economics test as a prerequisite to voting.. Heh.

[Jules]

Yes, that's waht I meant when I said IGNORANT - most people don't even know what they're voting for (and I do believe that people who live in urban areas are more conscious of the issues than the rural folk.)

Stan, I don't believe that you need an economics test to vote, but a basic test of the knowledge of the issues wouldn't be bad, but I guess I would open up a can of worms here. I just would have liked to seen the outcome of ANY election where everyone who voted knew at least what their candidate stands for.

In addition, I spent 4 years in a rather rural comunity (small town, lots of farmland) and believe me, I'm not just talking out of my ass here. I heard people talking about last election, and politics in general and I am basing my opinion partly on that. Plus, how would you possibly explain such high concentration of democrats in big urban areas, vs. high concentration of republicans in the rural part of the country?

[Stan LS]

Yes, that's waht I meant when I said IGNORANT - most people don't even know what they're voting for

No you referred to Republicans specifically.

(and I do believe that people who live in urban areas are more conscious of the issues than the rural folk.)

I already cited the statistic that 49% of college graduates voted for Bush - the same % that voted for Kerry (Nader got 1%). As for what you "believe" - its irrelevant unless you can show some basis for it, otherwise its just prejuidice.

Stan, I don't believe that you need an economics test to vote, but a basic test of the knowledge of the issues wouldn't be bad,

Maybe some do. When one is ignorant of basic economics and the fact that Nasdaq began to dip under Clinton, one thinks that Bush somehow caused the recession. A simple test would clear up ones competence in such matters. When one thinks that Clinton kept us safe - one needs reminding that the only reason why the towers withstood the bomb in 1993, is because the terorrists did not use enough explosives. When one thnks that the democratic party is historically for the minorities, perhaps one needs a test regarding who emancipated the slaves, which party voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964 at a higher %, etc. Or which party has an ex KKK member currently in the senate (Byrd). Then we would be able to filter out the ignorant voters and your party would be in (even bigger) trouble :)

In addition, I spent 4 years in a rather rural comunity (small town, lots of farmland) and believe me, I'm not just talking out of my ass here. I heard people talking about last election, and politics in general and I am basing my opinion partly on that.

Anecdotal evidence. Unless you've conducted a study on the views of that town's residents, you can't really speak for the whole town. You don't mention the % of registered democrats vs republicans there, either... What's more, that town (which you didn't mention by name, so I won't disclose its name in case you don't want me to for any reason) is dirt poor. Compare it with, let's say, Clifton Park, NY which has a very similar population, but its median household income is almost 3x that of the town you speak of. So, yea, they are both small towns, but are they really the same?

By the way, definition of urban (according to US Census):

Census designated places of 2,500 or more persons.

So you are not even speaking of a rural area, but a small town. As for small towns, 50% went for Bush, 48% for Kerry - hardly a difference. See for yourself.

You really have no leg to stand on :)

Plus, how would you possibly explain such high concentration of democrats in big urban areas, vs. high concentration of republicans in the rural part of the country?

Could be a number of things. I suspect that rural voters are more likely to be gun owners. They are probably more likely to hold traditional values. Minorities, who always vote for democrats, tend to live in urban centers at a higher rate. Immigrants (who tend to live in the cities) whose families might be relying on social programs probably vote for democrats. There are probably other reasons, but bottom line - you take away NYC and LA and NY and California become swing states.

[Igor]

"and believe me, I'm not just talking out of my ass here."

Jules, this is incredulous.. For someone who tries to appear intelligent and not as "ignorant" as the midwestern hick farmers you are making exceptionally ignorant statements.. The fact is that farmers make up only 2-3% of the US population.

To back this up here is an Iowa example:
Iowa census

According to this census, farmers make up 2.9% of Iowa, which is as farmer's state as there could be..

You claim that farmers are ignorant, and that the city folk is superior in their intelligence and knowledge of the issues. Yet, how many times have you been to Harlem, South Bronx, East Chicago, East New York, Bedford-stuy, the project areas of LA, etc..? How many of the inhabitants in those parts of the "Democratic heartland" would you say are more intelligent and enlightened than the farmers? How many of them vote for Democrats because they understand the issues as opposed to because they are told that GOP wants to enslave them? How many of them vote for Democrats because GOP promises them larger welfare checks with no pressure to look for work nor get an education?

How many older folks vote for Democrats because Kerry LIES to them that GOP wants to take away their Social Security checks?

How many young college students vote Democratic because 99% of their professors are ultra-left and have a chance to brainwash them before they get out into the real world and now the difference?
or because KErry LIES to them about the "Bush draft"?

And lastly, how many people vote for KErry because they dont understand the infinite gap between hs rhetoric and his promises and their inconsistency with reality?

[Stan LS]

Igor,

I can think of at least 2 :)

[Jules]

Kerry lies to them about Bush draft? Where do you think all those soldiers will come from? We are already overextended in Iraq. Think about this. Our biggest ally (and I use this term loosely here) is Great Britain. Once Tony Blair is up for re-election, what do you think will happen? There is a high chance that he will not be re-elected, because from what I understand, he's not very popular with his people right now for draggin them into this war. If he looses the election, it will most likely be to someone who will promise to bring the troops home. That said, how long do you think it'll be before GB withdraws it's troops and we'll be left to fill in the void?

[Jules]

And Igor, I do not try to appear intelligent, I am. I disagree with your party's ideals just as you disagree with mine. That's all there is to it. And don't tell me how much Kerry lied because Bush is no angel either. All politicians lie, Kerry is no more a liar than Bush.

[Jules]

Btw, if you go back and look at your CNN poll, do you find this interesting?

74% of Jews voted for Kerry (and you told me that Jews voted for Bush).
74% of other religious minorities voted for Kerry.
67% of people with no religious affiliation voted for Kerry.

This all tells me that Bush's Christian BS is what got him most of the votes. Maybe it's a big deal to me since I'm not a religious person, but religion should not be basis for politics.

Look at the most important issues to voters breakdown:

80% of those who valued moral issues voted for Bush (the only moral issues that I see being talked about in the campaign is stem cell research, abortions and gay marriage).

Those who valued education voted mostly for Kerry

Those who thought Iraq was an important issue voted for Kerry (surprise surprise)

Those who thought economy and healthcare were the most important issues, voted for Kerry.

So, the only thing that Bush seemed to prevail on is MORAL ISSUES, oh and yeah, terrorism. So, from what I see, Bush supporters must be really scared....of gays....of abortions.....of terrirists knocking on their door (Don't worry Iowa, they won't come looking for you).

[Jules]

BTW, Slavik. I am seriously pissed off at you posting my personal emails to you on your blog. The least you could have done is asked. If you don't have any other worthy topics to talk about except to trash me, please ask next time. I may have been in the mood to discuss these issues with you (because we're friends), but not with every tom, dick and harry who reads your blog.

[Deb S.]

"All politicians lie, Kerry is no more a liar than Bush."

That *may* have been true before Mr. Bush became President. I have my doubts, but I'll let it be. As President, however, lies get you impeached. Ask Mr. Clinton about it.

Blair will be re-elected. England has a small majority of traditionalists just as we have here. Despite what the media lets us see of them.